The Wizards of Capitalism. A conversation with Juan Pablo Macías

In an age in which the global art market governs the artistic practice, from the margins of the art world – the peripheral city of Livorno – departs an analysis with multiple voices. The event “Arte, Magia e Capitalismo” has aimed to put under observation the relationship between art and capital, dealing with the contradictions of the art system and some possible solutions. The program included exhibitions, workshops, screenings and round tables. The following is a conversation with artist Juan Pablo Macías, co-curator of “Arte, Magia e Capitalismo“.

“Arte Magia e Capitalismo”, Salvator Rosa gallery, exhibition view. Photos by Ela Bialkowska, OKNO studio

Vincenzo Estremo: At this moment, one of my personal visions of capitalism is that it not only destroys traditional culture and ways of living, but that it co-opts creative strategies, transforming them into something else. Competitive global market economies undoubtedly transformed art since their affirmation in Western society. How do you think market economy played a role in transforming art and radically altering social interactions?

Juan Pablo Macías: One of the world’s biggest problems is one of distribution, and not necessarily the distribution of wealth, of resources, but of all sorts of lively products, of forms of life, and exclusively those born out of our creativity, out of our inventions.  In Debt, David Graeber says that the only one and true debt is unpayable, or that the only way of paying it is being grateful towards Earth’s generosity, towards our ancestors, towards wise men, and in that sense, becoming respectful towards Earth, in learning the inherited knowledge ourselves, in becoming ancestors ourselves. This means passing on whatever it is that you are in moral debt to pass on.
The logic of accumulation displays – it makes us see – the effectivity of all our forms of knowledge, of creativity; the thing is that production is completely isolated from consumption, and distribution is a funnel. The mandate of creativity is to be shared, not sold. And well, besides certain artists, the rest of the people believe that art is that lacquered dead object hanging on the walls of their houses, their institutions, or published in glossy magazines.

“Arte Magia e Capitalismo”, Salvator Rosa gallery, exhibition view. Photos by Ela Bialkowska, OKNO studio

VE: Once there was the idea of artists as the “bohemian pioneers” who eventually ended up gentrifying neighborhoods; I think nowadays things changed, and here we should talk about artists being the template for precarity and the type of job experience we now have under financialization. Art is following and often anticipating tendencies in the labor market. This is the thesis I am developing in the upcoming publication that I hope we could discuss together with you as soon as the book will be printed; my question is, how could strategies of detournement affect our society, in which creativity is a strong point in the financial market?

JPM: Dissent has always come hand in hand with intellectuals, artists, experimenters, with creative people. We have seen this in our revolutions and with the avant-garde. We saw it also during the sixties and seventies globally. We are being punished after those beautiful decades. Not only artists, intellectuals, workers, but whoever fits the mold listed above. There is only room for people who reaffirm the capitalist system of values. So in Italy, for example, we have only archistars but no architecture, or a strong art system with very little art, and for sure tons of bureaucratic forms that kill all sorts of creativity, that prevent it. We believe prevention is a key word. So probably detouring is a must as there is no place to call home. The artist as a template or model seems to us a static representation, when in reality the artist has to start being an agent.

“Arte Magia e Capitalismo”, Salvator Rosa gallery, exhibition view, Iacopo Seri, La Vigna (2019). Photos by Ela Bialkowska, OKNO studio

VE: In the perspective of workerism (operaismo), art should not be under capitalism, as it must abolish and destroy market and capitalism. My question is: which kind of negative impact can art have on money? What is your position on the refusal of work?

JPM: Everything in nature produces an excess, which is part of the sharing aspect of creation. Ants have two stomachs, one for the individual and one for the community. Excess under this trend always produces something else, and even more. Maize in Mesoamerica multiplied its varieties thanks to this unstoppable sharing, to this unstoppable curiosity towards experimenting with new seeds. Diversity correlates with sharing. I believe we have to destroy the neoliberal trend in the management of our excesses, but not to destroy the market or currency, as both are our products, as both should be common to all. We need to re-appropriate them. The market in ancient Persia was a form of mutual aid. Currency is what it is, it has the history that it has, but in the end it is our excess as well. We need to destroy usury and the monopolistic practices that have highjacked these social institutions. We need to deny financial debt.
The sacredness we recognize in work resides outside of this system.

“Arte Magia e Capitalismo”, Salvator Rosa gallery, exhibition view, Iacopo Seri, La Vigna (2019); Federico Cavallini, Reversibile (2019); Hans Schabus, Faces and Corners. Photos by Ela Bialkowska, OKNO studio

VE: Salvator Rosa is one of the most interesting artistic and political projects emerged in recent years in Italy within the framework of contemporary art, I literally love it, could you tell us something more about it?

JPM: The artists in Salvator Rosa have been talking about this idea of an art gallery without a gallerist since 2012. Until now we have managed to activate it thanks to several circumstances and the experience gained through Carico Massimo Gallery. In Instead of a Book, more than one hundred years ago Benjamin Ricketson Tucker stated that capitalists expropriate 82% of the profit generated by labor. I don’t know what the numbers are today, but mathematics in this regard are very important. This is what we do at Salvator Rosa: selling artist 50%, logistics 30%, all associated artists 20% . There is nothing more to add. All the artists in Salvator Rosa have similar approaches, you can say we have affinity. We like each other. We all dialog with the system, as it is an out-of-field you cannot deny. We mediate it, and we have started mediating our work by cutting off everything pertaining communication and marketing. We are, for now, only devoted to creation. We have only made two public presentations in one year of existence and 13 realized projects, and we are going back to our hole again for another year cutting off the need for the cultural apparatus that furnishes art practices today and makes the whole process boring and stiff, and makes people dress up accordingly.

VE: One more question, the incredible opacity of the financial market leads a lot of people to refuse a scientific approach, and to embrace the magic and the imponderable as possible solutions. I am here referring to the rise of fake news and post-truth. What is your personal idea of magic?

JPM: Magic has always been a term to exclude any sort of knowledge or practice that does not pay tribute to reason. It’s a door to all the beauty outside of the world constructed by reason. It’s a way also to invoke anthropology in economic analysis.